Why 'Back in My Day' Views of Navy Boot Camp Changes May Be Missing the Point

Last time, on Fire Watch, we took you inside Navy boot camp. I was accompanied by Military.com reporter and Navy veteran Konstantin Toropin. And we came armed with a few questions: Is Navy boot camp different than veterans remember it? Is it still hard? And what do those changes say about the sailors joining the Navy today?

In this episode, we're taking a closer look at those changes -- ones that have fueled generational dissent among Navy veterans who see new recruits as being coddled. But isn't there a better way to assess what the Navy and its new sailors are doing?

• Reporters Drew F. Lawrence and Konstantin Toropin go to Navy boot camp.

Additional Resources

• Navy Follows Army in Offering Prep Courses to Recruits Who Don't Meet Fitness, Academic Standards
• Navy Allows Boot Camp Recruits to Use Personal Cell Phones to Make Calls to Family at Home
• Inside Today's Navy Boot Camp: Less Yelling, Same Sleep Deprivation

Listen, rate, and subscribe!

Spotify

Apple Podcasts

Google Podcasts

Transcript:

SPEAKERS

Chief Petty Officer David Bevels, Rear Admiral Carl A. Lahti, Capt. Kenneth Froberg, Command Master Chief Van-Troi SibiliaMartinez, Konstantin Toropin, RDC, Commander Christopher McHenry, Recruits, David Rogers, Recruit, Video, Drew F. Lawrence, Announcement, ABC News

Drew F. Lawrence 

There is some strong language in this episode because sailors…well sometimes they curse like sailors. Listener discretion is advised.

Chief Petty Officer David Bevels 

We're told OK, prepare for war because of North Korea, because of China, because of Russia, because of Ukraine, because of Israel, because of Palestine. But yet...How can we do that, but yet, we have to be gentle...

RDC 

Holy shit! We just got hit by a fucking missile and DCA just told us to go save the ammunition! Hooya, save the ammunition!

Drew F. Lawrence 

If the consensus is if it wasn't as hard, you know, maybe from your perspective as other generations of sailors have gone in, does that change you as a product? You as the sailor, does that change the outcome?

Recruit 

I don't think it makes us any less than, but as like the same as I think the same thing applies. As the world adapts and the world changes, we need different sailors to come to the task.

Drew F. Lawrence 

Last time, on Fire Watch, we took you inside Navy Boot camp. I was accompanied by Military.com reporter and Navy veteran Konstantin Toropin. And we came armed with a few questions: Is Navy bootcamp different than veterans remember it? Is it still hard? And what do those changes say about the sailors joining the Navy today? Some Recruit Division Commanders, or RDCs said that the generation of hopeful sailors coming into bootcamp is different, requiring instructors to be “gentle” in how they treat the recruits. Others pushed back on that notion. And some recruits said, well yeah – previous generations had it harder in some ways, but does that make them any less of a sailor? In this episode, we’re taking a closer look at those changes – ones that have fueled generational dissent among Navy veterans who see new recruits as being coddled. But isn’t there a better way to assess what the Navy and its new sailors are doing?

ABC News 

Tonight our team onboard the USS Eisenhower tonight right in the Red Sea, the US is there to destroy missiles launched by Iranian backed militants.

Drew F. Lawrence 

For Military.com, my name is Drew Lawrence. It is July 26th. And this is Fire Watch. When we last left you, we touched on one of the biggest changes to happen to bootcamp in the last couple years. Cell phones. It’s a good example of how changes immediately create impressions and assumptions, but reality often is less dramatic. On a late, hot afternoon we entered a Navy exchange – a hub of energy drinks, food and trinkets for parents and grandparents of graduating sailors who want to commemorate their own moments at the Recruit Training Center. I got Konstantin a little token to remember our trip by the way, a camouflage key tag that said “Navy Grandpa.” He was not enthused. Down a hall, recruits were making their final calls home – A cacophony of hopeful voices and even some crying created a loud din in the cramped room. It was warm in the call center, a bit musty and it reeked of sweat. Down the lines of booths, recruits were making calls home to family or to friends. This group of sailors had already passed Battle Stations, a simulation of a disaster at sea which you learned about last episode. They have no more hurdles, just graduation. And they were making these calls home, describing all of those challenges, on cell phones. Last November, the Recruit Training Command, or RTC, announced that it would allow a couple recruit divisions limited use of their cell phones while at boot camp. The RTC announced the change on Facebook, and some of the comments showed mixed reactions. One person said they thought it was “fantastic” but with “limits.” Another reacted with a take we’ve heard a lot as reporters – voicing concerns about perceived diminishing standards. “The RTC may have a reason behind this new rule regarding cellphone usage standards. Still, I don’t think it will be beneficial in keeping our proud standards and military bearing and shaping our new Sailors to continue being the best. When I went to boot camp, all these little things taught me how to value and appreciate what I have, and I see things from a different perspective. These values are even more critical for our new generation. If we lose them, I am wondering what else we will have left.” When news hit, some assumed that recruits were walking around with cell phones, glued to Instagram and social media, reinforcing stereotypes about Generation Z. Even some of the RDCs we spoke to had initial trepidations about the policy.

RDC 

And a lot of us have been in for a while, at first when I first heard about it. I was like, 'What are we doing?' You know, but it doesn't make sense. Yeah,

Drew F. Lawrence 

I didn’t catch that instructor’s name, but it was a theme we’d hear during our visit. The instructors told us that In reality, the change is pretty benign. At the time we were there, the recruits have four scheduled phone calls during their time at Great Lakes that they can make on their cell phones. Based on your the emails that you get from everyone seems like they have a complete misunderstanding about what...is you're just replacing the landline with the abilities of the cell phone. That's, that's all it is right?

RDC 

That's all it is. It does help with like, passing of information, it makes it a lot easier absolutley. As soon as they get back to the compartment, we collect them and we lock them up.

Drew F. Lawrence 

And they have to sign a form, right?

RDC 

There's a what we call a page 13, meaning they know the rules, they read the rules, they understand the rules, and you're signing that, you know, and acknowledge those rules.

Drew F. Lawrence 

And the rules are like you can only use it for calls?

RDC 

Yeah, just voice call, no face time, no texting unless like things that are needed to have to be text, like pictures that they need to send their families or stuff like that.

Drew F. Lawrence 

Bank information.

RDC 

Bank information, or the use of apps for like banking information. That's pretty much it like outside of that, like you can't FaceTime and you can't use a phone when we don't authorize you to use the phone.

Drew F. Lawrence 

These calls occur on the eve of graduation. It’s a penultimate rite of passage that recruits have that largely hasn’t changed for decades. Most of these recruits have never used a payphone. Plus, it allows for recruits to stay away from common traps of new sailors. For example, they can make sure their bills are paid and credit hasn’t plummeted in the weeks they’re away from home and not monitoring their finances, which for the majority of Americans today, are digitized.

Recruit 

I ended up calling a couple buddies of mine who are in the military currently, as well as my father who's going to here at graduation. So you know after doing battle stations last night, it was a really good experience to kind of talk to them.

Drew F. Lawrence 

That's recruit Jackson Platner, and he told us he benefited from using his cell phone, and that he hasn't slept since being up all day and all night for battle stations.

Recruit 

Being able to tell my friends that are currently serving that, 'Hey I'm kind of joining the club.' It was a good feeling. I think, either or, I could go either way. I mean, for newer generations, I think a lot of people don't memorize phone numbers very well. And I'm certainly no exception to that. So I think it did help in the aspect of keeping in contact with more people. But as far as the essentials goes, you know, mom, dad, whoever is coming to graduation, a lot of times people will prepare for that anyway, and bring those phone numbers with them. So I think the cell phone does help, but it's also not necessarily needed.

Drew F. Lawrence 

And one of the things some of the RDC staff are saying is, you know, like having the cell phone, right, you can look at your bank account and like check your bills and like, do that type of stuff. Did you do any of that while you're in there?

Recruit 

I didn't have the chance to I had no, no need to here. But I do understand that there are some recruits here that that's definitely a necessity. In fact, that's even like a necessity in getting citizenship for some of them. So I definitely think that it is a good step in the right direction. I kind of fell victim to that like mentality as well, you know, I heard all this stuff like, 'Oh, you're gonna get your phone every weekend. You know, it's gonna be so easy and everything like that.' But I think I think what they do is actually a very great system, they spaced it out. And they don't, they don't give you too much freedom with it. And I think that's good. It still maintains the discipline of what recruit training should be.

Drew F. Lawrence 

Another recruit Ryan Gonzalez said this:

Recruit 

Because that's probably the hardest part of boot camp is the complete disconnect from family and society. And it's nice to be able to at least briefly reconnect. So it was a big stress relief to make sure that the MyPay was set up and that all my bills and stuff like that at home are getting paid and everything was going smoothly. Because for the first couple of weeks, it was like a little bit of anxiety. It's like, we're going to come out of here and be like my credits gone down. I got a bunch of bills overdue and stuff like that and being able to have the cell phone and just be able to double check like 'okay, everything went smoothly' took a lot of outside pressures and anxieties off.

Konstantin Toropin 

It's almost...it's 1:30 on Wednesday. When did you last go sleep?

Recruit 

I woke up at 5:15 on...I don't, honestly I don't remember. I remember I woke up at 5:15. That's about it.

Konstantin Toropin 

Now, if you were in this state had to operate that payphone that was back there. Would you be able to do it?

Recruit 

Maybe not on the first attempt, but I'd keep trying until I figured it out.

Drew F. Lawrence 

The recruits we spoke to would be heading to the graduation ceremony shortly. And to perhaps emphasize the future mission the new sailors would be taking on, Rear Admiral Carl A. Lahti the 44th commander of Naval Forces Japan and Navy Region Japan, was the guest speaker.

Rear Admiral Carl A. Lahti 

Sailors, you are about to embark upon the one of the most challenging adventures of your life. You have chosen to serve your country at a time when it is most needed. When America must show a strong presence throughout the world. Peace and stability around the world is threatened by many nations who refuse to obey the international laws of responsibility that have governed state to state behavior since the end of World War Two. You have earned not only mine, but the respect of a grateful nation. Congratulations.

Announcement 

And without further delay, now hear this liberty call! Liberty call! Fall out!

Drew F. Lawrence 

The newly annointed sailors dispersed from their ranks and met family and friends through hugs, tears and whoops of joy. Still, despite what recruits described as an exhaustingtest of their mettle in boot camp – and a successful graduation – they could not shake at least a little generational ribbing. We spoke to a Navy veteran, mustachioed with a blue Navy hat adorned with military-style pins indicating he was an intelligence specialist.

David Rogers 

David Rogers, United States Navy retired. That's my boy.

Drew F. Lawrence 

That's your son?

David Rogers 

He's my grandson. And he's fourth generation Navy now. I served, my wife served. And my son has served. I don't know where he went. But it's really an honor. And by the way, things have changed around here a little bit since 1972.

Drew F. Lawrence 

Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing?

David Rogers 

It's a good thing. All the amenities, you know, they, they, they really developed this place to take care of the sailors that come through here. And that's really great.

Drew F. Lawrence 

Do you think it's as hard as it was when you went through? No. No, I, I say that I don't know for a fact. But I don't...I would like to think they're as hard on him, if not harder. Because sometimes, you break them down, you build them up. Make that that character, and that strength is what they need. And you're proud of them?

David Rogers 

Absolutely. Couldn't be more proud.

Drew F. Lawrence 

At the end of our tour of boot camp, we sat down with the Triad – the three leaders who are in charge of the recruit training command. We came armed with the same question about generational changes to recruits. When we entered the command suite, as they call it, we had a good idea of what things looked like on the ground. We also knew about the upper level struggles in recruiting, ones that have made headlines over the last several years. That’s put a lot of pressure on the recruiting command to not lose too many recruits to attrition, and those attrition rates were a theme we heard about a lot during the duration of our visit. We spoke to the leadership: Captain Kenneth Froberg, the commanding officer, Commander Christopher McHenry, the executive officer, and Command Master Chief Van-Troi Sibiliamartinez for nearly an hour. We touched on how boot camp has evolved, and it gave rare insight into the thinking of senior leaders at the helm of recruit training.

Konstantin Toropin 

Boot amp has undergone a lot of changes over the past several years, some more recent than others -- cell phones is I think, you know, the policy several months old. You've presided over some of these changes, sir. I'd love to get your sense of why you felt that these tweaks, let's say, have been necessary.

Capt. Kenneth Froberg 

We need to mentor a force, not through just language, but through action that feels it's okay to look at an environment and say, 'Well why are we doing it this way? And that challenging questioning attitude is the only way that we can foster that innovative culture that we need to adapt, overcome and succeed in combat.

Drew F. Lawrence 

That's Captain Froberg, the commanding officer.

Capt. Kenneth Froberg 

That is the core why. So every time we turn a corner in RTC we're like, 'Well, why are we doing that?' Well, there's a reason why we do that. But if we don't have a reason that we can justify in 2024, then the second level question is well 'Do we really need to be doing it that way anymore?' And if it turns into 'Well, that's just the way we've always done it.' Then we have a third question of 'Is that the right way of doing the right things the right way, though?'

Drew F. Lawrence 

There is a recruiting crisis, all the branches are fighting for for the same pool of people. And that crisis has had, you know, tendrils in different facets of the military. I'm wondering how has it...How has the recruiting crisis affected anything here at RTC?

Capt. Kenneth Froberg 

I choose to look at the talent market as fiercely competitive. And I think that's good. It challenges us to innovate and it challenges us to really refine the value proposition of serving the United States Navy, which is profound, or in any service. As a key partner in the Navy accessions enterprise. You know, I am fascinated by what's going on in the recruiting sphere, because that's our raw product. As we navigate this, I look at this as we have to tell the Navy story. And we have to do that and make sure that we're getting our message to the far points of our country. Because when we don't tell the Navy story and tell it with, you know, sometimes with warts and all, but we tell our Navy story, truthfully and credibly. I think that's a powerful, it's a powerful motivator for people that want to be part of that.

Drew F. Lawrence 

What are the practical effects of that competition here on the ground at RTC?

Command Master Chief Van-Troi SibiliaMartinez 

As a prior command master chief of the recruiting district in New York, and going out there and seeing how recruiters, you know, go after the talent...

Drew F. Lawrence 

That's Command Master Chief SibiliaMartinez.

Command Master Chief Van-Troi SibiliaMartinez 

I realize how hard it is to convince somebody to join this team. And that competition for that talent is good, because it drives innovation, and then it makes you more protective of that that talent that you have acquired, right. That translates to being at recruit training command, because now we understand how hard it is to bring them here. So there's another level of let's protect what has been provided to us. And well, you know, getting leadership like Captain Froberg coming in with specifically the leveraging technology, utilizing more technology, instead of just the standard binders and books more, let's go digital in certain elements, then now information is moving a lot faster. And if our recruit division commanders understand how important it is to protect that talent that has been provided to us, they're going to be overly protective in training them to the best of their ability, which has led to the historically low 7.95% attrition currently at RTC. Last year around this time, we were looking at around 14%.

Drew F. Lawrence 

There’s the attrition point again, one that we’ve heard surrounding nearly every change that has been made in boot camp. The leadership shared few metrics to how training is going, but attrition is probably the biggest one. And in an era where recruiting is hard, losing potential sailors could be catastrophic for the force as it takes on enormous responsibilities.

Konstantin Toropin 

You know, one of the most probably iconic aspects of recruit training for all the services, Navy included, is sort of the- I think one RDC call it sort of shock and awe, you know, the yelling, the, you know, the recruit commander in your face telling you, you're wrong or what have you. I'd love to get your thoughts on kind of what the philosophy behind that particular tool is, you know, certainly acknowledge that it's one club in a bag that the RDCs have, especially sort of in light of this whole, like generational conversation.

Capt. Kenneth Froberg 

If Lee Ermey was an RDC in today's Navy, he probably would have been fired about five minutes into his tour. It's just the reality of the Navy, we serve it. And so...

Command Master Chief Van-Troi SibiliaMartinez 

You know, I'm from the generation where I'm getting the shock and awe as soon as I'm getting off the bus, you know, we have recruits night of arrival. Now we're talking about 22-2300, running through the parking lot with bags and things to get into this facility, potentially tripping, falling all that. That that's a safety hazard right there. We got to we got to look into that. So we took a smart approach to it. Do you know how much stress a recruit is already embarking on before they even depart their home or record. Just heading from MEPs to the airport is already stressful enough. Then from the airport to O'Hare to go to the USO, there's more stress because it's the first time you're away from your families. You are in an unknown territory, second guessing that decision of whether you're want to be in the Navy or not. Then you get in this bus and you transition from O'Hare all the way to RTC for the unknown and all you know is probably the things that you've seen on YouTube and maybe what people have shared with you and it's never positive 'Yeah, they're gonna take care of you.' They're gonna yell at you, that's what you hear. Well, there's enough stress already were there whole yelling right from the get-go, that so-called shock and awe, was ineffective. I have already so much stress going on, you can yell all you want an it's not getting anywhere. Now, what RDCs are trained on is that yelling is okay. It's just when the yelling happens. Because if we're going to train you to be a basically trained sailor, you must be aware that there'll be scenarios when you go out to the fleet that are operational environments, especially when somebody's life may be on the line and somebody's about to, you know, conduct something unsafe that will result in somebody getting harmed. You may get yelled at. So this is not the nobody gets yelled at Navy. It's more it's strategically located, depending on the scenario, with an emphasis on what's the task at hand. But the fact that, you know, we go around yelling all the time, no.

Capt. Kenneth Froberg 

They don't want to have to yell at you. But if you keep doing the same thing, the same way, after they told you once or twice, don't be surprised when they do yell at you, right. And so I think we're, you know, to CMC's point, we're very, again, going back to the, you know, the deliberate review of that experience, we're very conscious of how, you know, there's, there's going to be times where we intentionally want to put a person in a stress, stress position. We need people to be able to function when they're tired, when they're strained. As you saw during battle stations in the middle of the night, when the ship needs to be saved from a casualty. They need to learn what that has to feel like at boot camp. So that that will help drive them to really be brilliant at the basics and their trade crafts.

Drew F. Lawrence 

I want to talk about the talent that you're talking about here for a second, because a majority of that talent is coming from Generation Z. And I'm wondering what -- in your perspectives -- would you see is their strengths and what you see as their weaknesses as a whole.

Commander Christopher McHenry 

I think their strengths are, are they've had digital technology their whole lives.

Drew F. Lawrence 

That's Commander McHenry, he's the executive officer.

Commander Christopher McHenry 

And so I think part of the cell phone thing, part of, you know, using innovative strategies is 'Hey, we can't sit on what we've done before, we've got to move forward and keep up with technology, keep up with society.' Because again, as the captain said, if we're competing for this talent, we're gonna get left behind if we don't, if we don't innovate. I think there's an underestimation of this generation, you know, that, that somehow they're, you know they're individuals that if we take the time to invest into them, they will give back to us what we're looking for.

Capt. Kenneth Froberg 

I have a really hard time when people try to bin the arguments in generational labels, because so the first time I was exposed to Generation Z kind of characteristics was when I was at US Strategic Command, and we were looking at how do we invest or design the future command and control facility. And it was a fascinating design team piece that articulated these are some of the characteristics of of Gen Z that like, you know, and, and this is the way they like to collaborate and stuff like that. And I was like, wow, you know, they had the Gen Xers and I was like, you have Gen Xers and you have the Boomers. And, you know, you're like, at that point in my career, really never thought about it. I was just like, okay, that's old people, young people. You know, and, and so, it afforded me to think about it in that context, and I thought, wow, this is really fascinating, like the characteristics of generations. But then, as I saw manipulated for basically a 'you're with me or against' me kind of labeling and social media over the following years, I really moved away from that way of thinking because it was, it was so caustic. People have heart. And people's heart is in what they're doing, they're passionate about what they're doing doesn't matter how old they are. That passion shows through in their day to day performance.

Command Master Chief Van-Troi SibiliaMartinez 

As a recruit division commander, we don't look into generational and labels and any of that basic training is the great equalizer for all enlisted sailor. There's just one way of doing it. We don't care if you're 17 or 41. We don't care if the if the if the age limit gets increased or not. You're going to get the same training regardless of how old you are, or where you're coming from. It doesn't matter. We're not going to lower that standard. And we're not going to tailor it, depending on what year you were born. So while we understand that, you know, there are generational gaps in society and how people were brought up and whatnot, here, all we care about turning into basically trained sailor.

Drew F. Lawrence 

I want to jump in here for a second again. The original question was the strengths and weaknesses of the new generation of recruits coming in. The second part of that question, discussing weaknesses was not answered and I think that the response is at odds with some of the changes that are being made, which were made to keep up with the times, as you just heard. But to be fair – the answer, or lack of an answer, makes sense in its context. Why would those leaders answer questions that may sound disparaging to the new sailors heading to the force? And while that leaves us a bit of a gap in terms of assessing the quality of recruits coming in, it does largely track with one of the main questions we’ve been grappling with during this episode. And that’s whether the generational divide is a good measure of today’s recruits and boot camp overall. We don’t think so, and it appears that the leadership at RTC doesn’t think so either. So if not that, what is? Here’s part of CMC’s response to Konstantin’s shock and awe question:

Command Master Chief Van-Troi SibiliaMartinez 

Sometimes when the argument is like, 'oh, since we don't do shock and awe then they're their softer sailors, right?' And then I go 'Hold on a second.' Not to include all the other branches, because everybody's doing their part. But the Navy right now is constantly taking missiles in the Red Sea and other places. And guess what? Those sailors are executing as planned. If you want a measuring tool that is legit, just look at what's going on out there and then say, 'Are we that softer Navy that everybody's talking about?' Because we're doing stuff that is surgical, in some cases, to the perfection, stopping missiles inbound with the tools that we have, sometimes, you know, they go back...think about the stress when they say, missile inbound. Guess what? Those sailors are still turning keys, getting the the weapon systems to provide that defense mechanism to keep everybody safe. We're still doing it.

Drew F. Lawrence 

Since the extremist group Hamas launched a surprise attack against Israel in October, the Navy has been embroiled in an intense bombing and defense campaign in the Red Sea against the Houthis, which aligned themselves with Hamas. The USS Eisenhower, the source of the operations you just heard a clip from, returned from a nine month deployment where it endured near constant fire from the Houthis in Yemen. It was the first aircraft carrier to operate in the region since the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan nearly three years ago. And while it was still a Middle East deployment, it's hard not to connect it to the shift the Navy is embarking on elsewhere in the world. Capt. Froberg, the skipper, said the Navy is going from green operations back to blue ones. That sounds like, after decades of the Global War on Terror, the Navy is going back to doing true-blue Navy stuff, on ships to be specific. Especially as the Pentagon continues to challenge its “pacing threat,” China. That said, it sounded like it was business as usual at the RTC – the basics are the basics. I want to end this by bringing you back to Battle Stations.

RDC 

I want to impart some wisdom on you real quick...

Recruits 

[Recruits shouting]

Drew F. Lawrence 

Sailors lined up outside of heavy doors leading into an enormous warehouse meant to look like a pier. After they entered the facility, they were shown a video that Konstantin recalled as the same one he saw when he went through bootcamp. It emphasized Navy tradition and the gravity of the night. The recruits were glued to the screen – maybe because they haven’t really seen one in 10 weeks.

Video 

When you complete your mission tonight, you will take your place alongside John Paul Jones, James S. Trayer, and James E. Williams as a sailor in the United States Navy. Those heroes embody the proud legacy and heritage of the Navy's past. Each of you will now go forward to become part of the Navy's future. Your story will be written into the pages of Navy history.

Drew F. Lawrence 

There was a theme we saw throughout battlestations. At almost every exercise within the mock replica of the USS Trayer, there was a sad but important history lesson imbued upon the recruits.

RDC 

There was a collision, there was actually two of them...USS Fitzgerald and the USS McCain. So two ships in the same year each collided into a different ship, right? Do you think that those that were, you know, doing look out and bridge, you think they were adequately doing those watches. Those events ended up causing a lot of damage and it actual cost some lives. So that's an example right there of how important it is to be doing these watches appropriately and in a timely manner...

Drew F. Lawrence 

Unlike other services, when the Navy has a tragic episode, it’s often large. Ships are heavily tracked, their histories heavily scrutinized. It’s one of the things the Navy does best – learning from its mistakes like the USS Fitzgerald or the USS John McCain which – in separate incidents – collided with other ships in the same year. The Navy also learns from its successes. Which brings us to our conclusion.

Drew F. Lawrence 

Konstantin, I'm wondering how you think that these changes implemented at Navy boot camp will be remembered?

Konstantin Toropin 

I mean, it's a good question and a bit of a unanswerable one, I would argue, I mean, the heart of it is, you know, I think we don't know until these recruits, you know, how they're going to do in the fleet. They're new, and it'll take time for them to go through schooling to make it to their ships. And then for those ships to deploy. You know, I think very broadly, if we look at just the last several months of the Navy's activity, for example, in the Red Sea, you know, those sailors who are in a lot of ways not much different from the sailors that we saw going through boot camp have, by all accounts perform marvelously. I mean, you know, just some of the, if you look at just the awards, for example, the USS Mason, which was one of the ships that was operating out in the Red Sea, the Navy told me that they're looking at awarding her crew, more than 60, 65 Navy achievement medals with a combat C device. I mean, these are, these are 60 awards for combat.

Drew F. Lawrence 

Do you think that we answered all the questions that we set out to answer for the series?

Konstantin Toropin 

Um, yes and no, I think the big unanswered question that I still have is this, you know, goes to this notion of is this generation different than the ones that came before it? And I don't mean that just in the context of, you know, the Navy, I mean, you know, we asked this question to folks and didn't really get a good answer of is Generation Z...how do they stack up against Millennials or Generation X? But, you know, I don't know if that's a question to which the answer is somehow meaningful. I mean, obviously, as each generation has different societal influences on it, they grow up in different ways, they watch different movies, all of those things. But I don't know if having a definitive answer to that is informative to the broader conversation of does this generation make for better or worse sailors?

Drew F. Lawrence 

Looking back, what's your overall assessment? And how do you stack that against what you experienced at boot camp?

Konstantin Toropin 

I think at the risk of being overly simplistic or perhaps even cliche, I would say, you know, the sailors are alright. You know, that the heart of it is that the Navy is never going to ask sailors to take a hill like the Marine Corps would ask of a Marine, right? Or the Army of its soldiers for that matter. But what the Navy does ask is for an average sailor, a cook, a cryptologist, a fire controlman to save the ship, to fight the ship at any given moment, sometimes unexpectedly. You know, the scenario that we saw a battle stations -- the premise is that this is a ship on a basic refueling run that encounters a small boat and is attacked. And so the Navy asks its sailors to stay up late, stand long watches, endure hours of sleeplessness. And we saw that at boot camp, we saw them training to that expectation. The Navy, in that sense, the service and boot camp, especially teaches to that. Very broadly, I guess stepping back a little bit, you know, was the boot camp I saw different than the one I went through? Yeah, but I think that's a poor quality of assessment. And admittedly, some sailors did say that they were softer, but the heart of the training, you know, especially the sleeplessness, the stress, the being asked to make difficult decisions with incomplete information...that was all still there.

Drew F. Lawrence 

Thank you for listening to this special episode of Fire Watch. Thank you to my colleague Konstantin, and to our executive producers – Zach Fryer-Biggs and Jared Keller. If you enjoyed this episode, give us a rating And as always, thanks for listening.